An Inside Look at How the Publishing Industry Promotes Books

This week I attended BookExpo America (BEA) in New York City, a trade show for the publishing industry. It is here that publishers, distributors, licensors, booksellers, librarians, and many others come together to do business.

Because publishing is a business.

Usually, there are yearly recaps of the show, and people try to determine “trends” or the “state of the industry,” but what really drives the show is this: people who want more exposure for their books, and more revenue in the process.

Is that cutthroat? Nope. These folks GENUINELY LOVE BOOKS. And perhaps that is the distinction between just being a casual reader who loves books, and being in the publishing business — the people at BEA are tending to that business.

In walking the show floor this year, I was thinking about the elephant in the room that some writers either don’t know about, or don’t want to know about: that to write is one thing (it is the first thing); but to sell, is another thing entirely.

We like to think that a good book sells itself. Looking around at the enormous show floor at BEA, I had to consider otherwise.

BEA 2015

For a writer, if they want their book to find an audience, to ignore the sales process is to ignore how books have found readers for generations.

Last week, I shared a list that Emma Dryden of drydnbooks shared with me on the number of people who touch a book within a traditional publishing process. It had more than 40 roles listed, far more than many people know about.

As I journeyed through BEA this week, I considered: what are all of the sales tactics being used to sell books here? A partial list:

  1. I have to start with this one: the first great sales tactic to sell a book is to indeed write a great book!
  2. Location (the Javits Center in NYC is flashy and expensive)
  3. Booths and booth design (you see lots of different strategies here)
  4. Free books, including advanced copies of highly anticipated books that won’t be published for months.
  5. Costumes (yes, there were people in costumes promoting books)
  6. Autographs from authors
  7. Celebrities
  8. Swag: free stuff
  9. Posters & banners (some 30 feet tall)
  10. Panels, sessions, concurrent events. In some of these situations authors become teachers, but in all the person on the stage is facing their fear of public speaking. My gut is that 99% of them would classify themselves, to some degree, as an introvert.
  11. Buzz panels — where certain books are pitched more fervently than others.
  12. Contests and awards (some are simple contests within a booth, but others are juried awards)
  13. In-person meetings (loads of these, with some huge portions of the show floor segmented off for these)
  14. Sales material, sales pitches, demos, etc.
  15. Social media (promoting hashtags, etc.)
  16. Parties (lots of these in the evening, it’s not uncommon for someone to try to pop into multiple parties on a single night.)
  17. Free alcohol (yes, they actually roll out these mobile bars onto the show floor at the end of some days)
  18. Free food, such as promotional cupcakes with book covers on them.
  19. Lots of messaging, links, business cards, and other ways to follow up after the show.
  20. Singing (yes, I’m serious)
  21. Nonverbal communication, such as smiling, body posture, and other cues
  22. Nice clothes. There I said it: we all had to tuck in our shirts for this event.

One huge thing worth noting: many of these are age-old sales tactics, as relevant in 1975 or 1925 as they are today. If BEA as an event eventually disappears, these same tactics will remain — just in a different guise.

I’m preparing to launch two courses about how to create proactive marketing plans for launching a book and gaining readership, and yet I often hear from authors who tell me things like:

“________ doesn’t work anymore to sell books.”

or

“Why do I have to do that, shouldn’t I just write?”

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: yes, writing is the first thing, and if you want to just write, I am 100% supportive of that. Go, write.

But I also speak to a lot of writers who struggle to connect their book with an audience, and are frustrated by that. And when I look around at BEA, and see how the industry sells books within itself, I see a huge effort at every level. To be clear: this is not just sales people selling to other salespeople, the show floor is filled with authors, editors, librarians, and people from every facet of the industry.

You will see authors and editors feverishly pitching books.

I bumped into a panel that included Gay Talese and John Guare.

Gay Talese and John Guare at BEA 2015

What on earth is Gay Talese doing here? He is 83 years old, does not have a new book coming out, and clearly doesn’t need promotion for his career. He’s a luminary.

John Guare is 77, and it just felt striking to me to listen to these men reflect on a new book to be published by an old friend (now deceased), Oscar Hijuelos.

Gay made a very clear and passionate pitch for the book, and even ended with saying…“that’s called promotion.”

Gay Talese at BEA 2015

Too often, I think modern day writers assume that in earlier eras, writers didn’t have to worry about marketing books. But listening to this panel, it is clear: they were very comfortable marketing books. This is nothing new.

Let’s take a look at the show:

Okay, I have to start with this: I met Brené Brown!!! We chatted, and she called me a midwife for authors.
Brene Brown and Dan Blank

Enormous banners in the glass atrium:
BEA 2015

What is so interesting is that the Wimpy Kid series is a runaway success. Yet, the publisher still feels that a 30 foot tall banner is needed:
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The woman on in the center is protecting advanced reader copies… there is a long line waiting to grab them:
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They couldn’t open these boxes fast enough, advanced copies of City on Fire:
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A lot of attendees bring an empty suitcase, and then spend the show filling it up with free books they receive:
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Autographing area, with Bernadette Peters signing on the left:
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Julianne Moore signing:
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Dr. Ruth signing:
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Costumed character:
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An author in costume:
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Cupcakes being readied to be given away:
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Emeril:
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Private meeting area for Macmillan:
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Private meeting area for Penguin Random House:
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American Booksellers Association Indie Bookseller lounge:
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A panel featuring a writer and illustrator for some of Marvel’s new Star Wars comics:
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Booths:
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The Penguin truck:
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Lev Grossman signing and new book:
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Jami Attenberg signing and new book:
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Singers:
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Free foam shields for a Rick Riordan giveaway:
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There was so much more that I didn’t capture in photos.

So how does this translate to authors, and not just trade shows — what are the lessons that an individual author can take from this? Well, let’s look at one book I was able to get, an advanced copy of City on Fire. From what I hear, this book is highly anticipated:

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Starting to read it on the train ride home, I noticed this inside the back flap:
City on Fire

The book won’t be out until November, but there are already blurbs when you open the book, and a long list of major promotion that the publisher is planning. Yes, the author seems to be pretty intimately involved in much of this.

All of this is not meant to overwhelm, because as I mentioned earlier, this is about the love of books and authors. I suppose I am reflecting on all of this for two reasons:

  1. How profoundly fortunate I feel to work with writers and those who support them.
  2. That yes, this is work to ensure books make their way into readers’ hands; and that this is work to be embraced.

If you are a writer trying to share your work with readers… which aspects of this fill you with the most fear; which with the most ambition?

Thanks!
-Dan

The Trap of Your Comfort Zone

My most recent guest post for WriterUnboxed.com provides specific examples (with photos) of some projects I am working on that illustrate the need for writers & creative professionals to work outside of their comfort zones. I frame it in three stages of one’s career:

  1. Writing
  2. Publishing
  3. Developing an audience

The post also includes a mind-blowing list of more than 40 people who may touch a book as it moves through the traditional publishing process.

Read the full post here.

Thanks!
-Dan

Inside Kickstarter

How do you ask for help?

A client and friend of mine is about to launch a Kickstarter campaign [update: it’s now live!], and today I would like to take you inside that process — that process of asking for help — and inside the Kickstarter company itself. We were able to take a tour of their headquarters, which was amazing (lots of photos below).

My friend is Sarah Towle (creator of Time Traveler Tours & Tales) who is developing a new book/app/tour that tells the story of the making of Michelangelo’s David. The StoryApp Tour not only tells the story, but is an interactive tour through Florence. You can literally walk around the city, guided by the StoryApp, and learn about history.

She has partnered with author Mary Hoffman for this project, which is titled, In the Footsteps of Giants.

This is the first thing that should be mentioned about Sarah and her process for creating meaningful work — she believes in the power of involving others, and in building a team.

Every week, I am on a team call with her and these amazing folks:

  • Emma Dryden, who has edited nearly five hundred books for children and young readers.
  • Deb Shapiro, who has created publicity and marketing campaigns for publishers such as Houghton Mifflin, Henry Holt & Company, Simon & Schuster and Bloomsbury Publishing.
  • Caitlin Hoffman, Administrative Assistant & Community Manager

But that is definitely not all! For the Kickstarter campaign alone, Sarah has many other partners who are hosting the launch event, spreading the word, donating, creating content, and helping out in some way. In her regular non-Kickstarter work, her partners include the writers she works with, the developers who create her apps, and so many others.

Before I really share anything about how Kickstarter works, I want to highlight how Sarah has invested in the most crucial element of what it means to create work that matters to others: She is a part of, and works to develop, a community of people who are passionate about stories and history.

Too often, people start with an idea, and jump right to ideas on how to fund it. But Sarah has spent years not just crafting her work, but investing in others.

When Sarah first began reaching out to others to seek advice about running a Kickstarter campaign, they all said the same thing: This is a full-time job for at least three months. Let me repeat that:

Full time job. For three months.

What have we found in our experience? This is absolutely true. Sarah has worked tirelessly not just going through our strategy, but navigating setbacks, managing partnerships, and ensuring the rest of of work (and family) keeps on ticking through it all.

She has been crafting a case study on various elements of the process so far:

There is a lot to be excited about here. Sarah is passionate about her work, has partnered with wonderful creators, and is taking action on a bold vision.

That said, there is a lot I am nervous about as well. (Sarah, this is where you should stop reading!) For one, we don’t know if all of this will really work! That is the problem with having a bold vision — it means you are navigating through some risky situations, which by their very nature, can feel harrowing.

I have been interviewing a wide range of creative professionals for my book, and see this theme again and again: risk is an inherent part of marrying one’s craft to their career.

Sarah’s Kickstarter launches next week (sign up for Sarah’s newsletter to stay up to date), and there is so much that is still being finalized. It’s exciting… and it’s terrifying!

Which is what I find is exactly the place you want to be as a creator, on that edge between excited and terrified. Because otherwise, you likely aren’t doing enough to push your work into the world.

One of the biggest surprises of all of this is how amazing Kickstarter, the company, has been during this entire process. Not just their tools and service — but their people! (Do you see a theme in this post?)

Sarah reached out to Kickstarter Publishing Community Manager Margot Atwell, who has been an amazing resource in helping to guide the campaign. And how cool is this? Margo competes in and teaches roller derby, and is working on her own book on the history of the sport.

A few weeks back as we were preparing for next week’s launch, the idea came up — “Could we actually visit Kickstarter?” Sarah reached out to Margot, who welcomed us into their amazing facility. Okay, let’s take a tour.

Emma Dryden, Deb Shapiro, Sarah Towle, and me as we embark on our journey from Union Square in Manhattan to Kickstarter HQ in Brooklyn:
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Sarah and Deb talking strategy on our long walk through Brooklyn:
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Things you pass while venturing through Brooklyn:
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But we also passed the amazing WORD bookstore!
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When you first walk into Kickstarter HQ, you look down upon their large communal kitchen:
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Around the area is another eating area (I love a company this focused on food!!!), which I was told was designed to re-create the diner where the Kickstarter founders first hatched the idea for the company.
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They have a gallery which showcases Kickstarter projects!
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Each exhibit features the process the creator went through in turning their idea into reality, with the help of Kickstarter. Here is a headphone designer:
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I completely forget what this was a design for:
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We were like kids in a candy store as we toured their facility. It was like Willy Wonka’s factory for supporting creators turning their ideas into reality:
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Okay, back to their kitchen (cool, right?!):
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The bike room:
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The enormous room where their employees have their desks:
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I loved the natural light and the sense of space. Here is the other side:
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This is where my mind was blown. They have a library. An actual library:
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Margot shows the team the shelf of books funded through Kickstarter:
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Another look at the library. Did I mention they have a library? They do:
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While this seems mildly like a hallway from The Shining, it is actually their grouping of private offices, which counterbalances the largely communal workspaces that take up the rest of the building:
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One of the adorable private rooms:
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The big feature of their offices is not what is inside, but what is outside. An incredible atrium floods every room with natural light and a view of nature:
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And their impressive rooftop garden:
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How incredible is this view from the garden down through the atrium into their offices?!
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At the bottom you can see the large room where the main cluster of desks is located:
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I can’t lie, we were pretty giddy:
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A view across the rooftops of Brooklyn:
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We sat on their rooftop deck with Margo and discussed how to improve the campaign to help encourage success:
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Something that jumped out at me was the huge variety of work areas that Kickstarter provides its employees. Traditional desks, standing desks, couches, communal tables, small group tables, inside, outside, lounge chairs, benches, etc. Every nook and cranny of this place had a different type of space that their employees could choose to work for the day:
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One last shot of the atrium:
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Sarah, Emma and Deb preparing to venture back out into Brooklyn:
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What I take from this experience is exactly that — the experience itself. The StoryApp Tour that Sarah is building is a wonderful focus, as is her mission to “turn history on” to young people by making stories from history accessible and fun. While I have no idea what next week will bring, I can say that Sarah and her team have embraced this experience in every detail.

Thank you, Sarah, for inviting me into this adventure.

In your own work, how do you involve others in asking for help?
Thanks.
-Dan

Behind the Scenes of My Life as a Creative Professional

Today, I would like to take you behind the scenes to see what my professional life looks like. I’ll show you many of the projects that I haven’t talked about recently, and some of the wonderful people that fill my life.

Angela TuckerThe idea for this post came after reflecting on the words filmmaker Angela Tucker shared in an interview we did; how these two themes of her life jumped out at me:

  1. The number of disparate projects and goals she juggles at any one time.
  2. How incremental progress is. Success will come. One. Slow. Step. At. A. Time.

Sometimes it is easy to feel as though you are throwing spaghetti at the wall, hoping something sticks. In truth: some projects succeed, but others fall flat. There is an expression: “fail fast and fail often,” which is meant to underscore the value of what you learn when something doesn’t work. Yes, sometimes this can feel invigorating, but other times, it is harrowing.

More and more, I define myself as “a writer,” but my work mostly falls into the heading of “creative professional.” I help people hone their creative purpose to ensure it reaches their audience in a meaningful way.

Margaret NobleThis week, I shared my interview with sound artist Margaret Noble. I found so much of what she said inspiring, but what truly stood out was the depth of her intention. How she makes difficult decisions to ensure that she finds the time to create her art, and to ensure that she grows as an artist.

So far, I have interviewed more than 15 people for my book Dabblers vs. Doers. This is research that I am sharing in real time, via podcasts and blog posts. And I have to say, from each interview, I am learning compelling things. These are the amazing creative professionals I have spoken to:

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For each, I spend days researching and preparing. I recently shared a nearly 3,000-word blog post taking you behind the scenes of my research process for the interviews.

The book is a milestone I am working towards, and in reality, won’t come to fruition for another 12-36 months. Again, that theme of incremental actions comes up. This is on top of nearly nine years of blogging (here is the first post), and a decade of sending out a weekly newsletter (haven’t missed a week).

This past week another incremental project came up: I taught a career workshop for 5th graders at P.S. 123 in Harlem.

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I have worked with this school for more than 10 years. Again, I am seeing the power of what it means to keep showing up for this community. We have tried a lot of different programs over the years, and not all have worked out as well as hoped. But each school year, I keep showing up:

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In talking with the students about finding careers, I encouraged them to pay attention to the skills and work they love, and to find more ways to experience them. I remind them you never know where these moments will lead.

As I look at all of the work I am doing, and the people I interview, I’m reminded of the truth in those words. Put yourself in the position to experience what you love, and to meet others who love it too. That is where those moments of serendipity happen.

Recently, I had similar conversations on these topics. This past week, I ran a workshop at my local bookstore, Short Stories Community Book Hub, on Bookstore Day.

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Then another in the series of “Momentum” meetups I have been holding in Morristown, NJ with my friend Scott McDowell:

Scott McDowell & Me

In these discussions, we explore the challenges and opportunities around pursuing creative work. One person made a really interesting distinction: how they can establish a habit of going to the gym, but avoid writing, which is their deepest passion. Their reasoning was that they know they will never be a great athlete, so it’s easy to show up to the gym because there are low expectations.

But their writing — they care deeply about it, about being good. So even the mere act of writing has become a terrifying exercise they avoid because they are nervous to discover their greatest fear: that their writing isn’t good.

Of course, the reality becomes that their writing doesn’t exist at all, because they never make the time for it. They are so afraid of failing that they release themselves entirely from the experience of writing.

It was a wonderful topic to explore, and what I tend to find is that the work I do often leads to conversations like this — explorations of deeper motivations and fears. The opportunity to work through them is what is so exciting.

I have been working with some wonderful clients this year — authors who are honing their focus, preparing to launch their books, and needing assistance in knowing how to ensure their work connects with an audience. For one client, we are preparing a Kickstarter campaign, which means I have been studying Kickstarter as a funding source. On Monday, I actually get to visit the Kickstarter headquarters in New York to chat with the their team. (More about the work I do with clients.)

The online courses I teach continue to be a big part of my creative life. I have had more than 100 students pass through them in 2015 so far. (More info on the courses I teach can be found here.)

In one recent course, a writer shared this after digging into the first lesson:

“I wanted to share something with you all — a kind of breakthrough happened for me. Thank you for giving me the safe space to work through an obstacle. I realized that I stop at “good” because I’m terrified of extraordinary. So, I sabotage myself, not in a way that is harmful physically or really mentally, but in a way that I accept good and settle for it, telling myself, ‘Well, at least you are good at it.’ I’m making a commitment now, to myself, to my family, to be extraordinary. I’m not sure how I’m going to get there, and it’s a little scary. But, I know this course is the start of something magnificent.But, I want extraordinary.”

Can you tell why I love doing what I do?!

Recently, I had the honor of being mentioned in Professional Artist magazine, sharing some similar themes about the the value of connecting directly with like minds via email:

Professional Artist magazine

I did some webinars for two wonderful organizations recently. This was was in the Random House offices for their authors:
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This one was for She Writes, a webinar series I conducted with Jennie Nash:
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This summer, I am speaking at the Romance Writers of America annual conference, Writers Digest Conference, and at Write Canada for The Word Guild.

Recently, I announced that I am hiring an intern this summer, and provided an update on the incredible value I have received in bringing employees on board at WeGrowMedia.

I have also begun work with the team again at Morristown Festival of Books for their second event this coming Fall. I’m helping out with social media and marketing, and I will say they have an exciting event lined up! I love connecting my local community with these authors.

As I write out these updates, it’s easy for me to see that so much of this is about surrounding myself with people who inspire me — who are driven to create meaningful work in their lives. Learning from these people helps me grow and allows me to help others in bigger ways.

To be honest, there is so much I didn’t include in this post: new partnerships I am currently planning, new ideas I am brainstorming with colleagues, details around private consulting clients, etc.

In the day to day of building all of this, I am driven by enthusiasm and caring for the people I come in contact with, but there is always a haziness around knowing what may work. What will lead to a sustainable practice for my business, and therefore, the foundation for supporting my family.

What I have found mostly is that, looking at these photos above, the practice is the goal. That showing up everyday is the goal. Pushing myself to take chances, to embrace risk, to explore new ideas and new partnerships is not in service of a bigger milestone, but they are the moments to embrace.

In the end — decades from now, hopefully — I may not remember the details of the projects or the revenue, but I will remember the people who were kind enough to share their lives and their enthusiasm for creating meaningful work with me. I will remember their faces, voices, and the moments I shared with them.

If you have read this far, I would love to know:

  • How can I better assist you in your goals?
  • How can I help this work reach more people that you know and feel have these challenges?

Please let me know at dan@wegrowmedia.com.
Thank you!
-Dan

“I switched from chasing other people’s sounds, into learning to cultivate my own.” My interview with sound artist Margaret Noble

Today I am excited to share my interview with sound artist Margaret Noble. I am inspired by Margaret’s habits as a creative professional, especially the intentional choices she makes to improve her craft, grow as an artist, and ensure she makes time to create.

Margaret NobleSome of what we cover in our chat:

  • How she views marketing and communicating about her work as integral to improving her craft, not just as “marketing” to generate more business.
  • How she moved across disciplines from dance, to DJing, to art.
  • The personal situations that sparked pursuit of her own artistic craft.
  • How she chooses art over money.
  • Her experience in collaborating with others.
  • The value of teaching in improving her craft.
  • How she navigates through rejection and anxiety.
  • How she organizes her life to ensure she has time for art.

Click ‘play’ above to listen to the podcast, or subscribe on iTunes, or download the MP3.

About Margaret

Margaret Noble is a sound artist whose work resides at the intersection of sound, sculpture, installation and performance. She holds a BA in philosophy from the University of California, San Diego and an MFA in sound art from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago.

Her projects have been featured on KPBS and PRI and reviewed in art ltd. magazine, Wired magazine, San Diego Union Tribune and the San Francisco Weekly. She has been awarded the International Governor’s Grant, the Hayward Prize and the Creative Catalyst Fellowship. Her artistic residencies include the MAK Museum in Vienna and the Salzburg Academy of Fine Art. She has had solo exhibitions at the Museum of Contemporary Art San Diego and at the Ohrenhoch der Geräuschladen Sound Gallery in Berlin. In 2014, she won first place in the Musicworks magazine electronic music composition competition.

Here are some excerpts from our chat:

How Her Sound Art Career Began With Dance

“We can take it back to the 1980s hip hop culture. I grew up in an urban environment where the greatest things on earth were sounds. Maybe you didn’t have a beautiful home or beautiful street or any money in your pocket, but you could always have a good time with music. Cars would be driving around bursting with sounds, human beat boxing, rapping, all these amazing sounds were around me when I was a little kid. My initial interest was dance, I did it for years.”

I asked about when she began dancing:
“As a skinny awkward child, probably eight, at the rec center. Just street dancing, or thinking you are doing street dancing. I probably wasn’t doing it very well. That was everything to our neighborhood. That’s all we did: kid shows, talent shows, and making dance routines all the time.”

“You definitely had to have a level of bravado, and I wasn’t the one spinning on my back, I was in the background wanting to do that. It was intimidating. Sometimes it was at the rec center, but sometimes it was in the middle of the park. They are doing dance-offs. It was amazing and exciting, you forgot where you were.”

I asked her about how she practiced the craft of dance:
“It was me and my friends alone for years. I didn’t have the moves at that age, but eventually you get the courage to submit a dance routine to the talent show. Maybe it was that moment that kept pushing me to submit performances and auditioning. It was 4th grade, we are on stage, dancing to ‘Fame’ with friends. It probably wasn’t that great, but it took courage.”

“In high school, I was on the dance team, then in college I got a dance scholarship and I took traditional dancing. My big high school thing was that I got to dance in the Super Bowl pre-game show, so I got to learn stage dancing too.”

“It was just after high school that I learned about underground raves. All of the sudden, you get a map to go to a secret location and dance all night long. I would chase DJs around. I danced at these free-form events. It’s not restricted to any code, because it’s rave dancing. It’s still beat-focused, but substantially faster. There is a performance there as well, but it’s different because it is a collective performance.”

I asked her how she found her place in this culture, which tends to take place in dark rooms with hundreds of other people. Her response:
“It’s really about finding the DJ who played the sounds you wanted to hear. There’s about 40 subdivisions of house music, so you found your place by finding the person who weaved the sounds that you wanted to hear. That was the chase, that was the unity.”

How the End of Her Marriage Sparked the Beginning of Her DJ Career

I asked about her decision to make the jump from consumer to creator:
“There’s two things pivotal in that decision. One is that I wasn’t finding what I wanted to hear; there were certain characters of sound that I wanted; drum patterns, shuffling beats, thick bass lines; continuous mixing. So I wasn’t getting that, and I needed it to dance.”

“The other thing was — and this is personal — but it was the same night that I knew my first marriage was over, that I knew I needed to buy turntables. I literally laid awake on my bed, saying, ‘I know my husband is not coming home tonight, I guess that means my marriage is over. I think I should buy turntables.’ It was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. I mean, divorce sucks of course, but I’m here now because of that decision.”

“I think the sound art is an extension of DJing. I’m grateful that that creative outlet came to me. It saved me.”

From Listener to Creator

“I realized that if you really want to control the grooves, that you should probably get behind the decks.”

Okay, so this point is huge to me. That moment when someone is enjoying being a part of an experience and community at a rave, and deciding that they want to take a leap to the next level: to controlling the music itself.

“I switched from chasing other people’s sounds, into learning to cultivate my own.”

“My particular interest was Chicago house music. So I bought two turntables, then I moved to Chicago.”

Developing Her Craft

I asked how she developed her craft of DJing:
“I was terrible at first. TERRIBLE. I don’t know if you know what a ‘train wreck’ is, but if you are on the dance floor, you do not want to hear the mixes, and the beats need to be continuous. This is house music specific: if you do a bad job of mixing and you don’t sync the beats up, you are messing with people’s dance, you are messing with people’s vibe. It took me a long time. I had to work really hard to nail that skill.”

“My first year or two, I remember that I was doing my bachelors at USD in philosophy and all I want to do is run home and practice. I finally learned that I would improve if I could record and listen. It’s very hard to know if you are doing well when you are actually playing. You are in that space of experiencing it, but you are not able to critically listen. Recording is what really transformed it.”

“At first I got gigs prematurely because I was the girl DJ. They were like ‘Oh cool! Girl DJ, we never had a Girl DJ!’ And I wanted to capitalize on that, but I wasn’t always ready. I can remember in San Diego, it was a really great gig. I got up on the decks, and I was definitely not feeling comfortable in the technical situation. Everyone was like, ‘Yes! House music! She’s gonna kill it!’ Then I got up and I sucked. I sucked. I cleared the floor. It was so heartbreaking. I knew I had to stop and practice more. I learned so much from that experience, and I’ll be damned if I ever screw up like that again.”

She then moved to Chicago specifically because of “Chicago house music,” which is where the DJs she loved were from.

I asked if she was able to DJ full-time, if this was paying the rent. Her response:

No, no. I’ve always carried myself by bartending or waiting tables. I learned at 18, that if you wanted to live and have time, that bartending or waiting tables is the way to go because you only have to do a couple shifts, and you can make enough money to really live. That was always the income source that supported my art habits. Until now, I do it by teaching.”

Transition to New Inspirations

“I submitted demos and submitted demos until I finally started getting gigs. I got a DJ agent, and just pushed pushed pushed. It was really exciting, but eventually, there was a creative stagnation, because you can really only do so much with two pre-pressed records. I don’t know if I was inspired anymore by just trying to make a dance floor move. I wanted to grow.”

She went back to school and got her MFA in sound art at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago in her early thirties.

On Collaborating with Others

“That’s how I broke into the art world: finding people with visual media who needed sound to support or augment the performance. I didn’t want to be sound designer for hire. I tried it and hated it. I wanted to have a voice.”

“Collaboration is exhausting. I’m a control freak too, so a lot of my friends who are extraordinarily talented are not as organized as me. That makes me crazy. The actual day-to-day management of projects is difficult. Then, when you make something beautiful, you forget how painful it was to get there, and you celebrate. You have to negotiate, give and take, and that is really challenging.”

Choosing Art and Voice, Over Money

“I think if I wanted money, my life would be very different. Experience is so much more rich and fulfilling than a pocket full of cash without being proud of my work.”

“I tested doing sound design for theater; hated it. I considered moving to LA to get an editing job, for dialogue editing; pulled out of that one. I was never in this to be a gun for hire. I’ve always been in this to have a voice. To keep the integrity of my work, if that means I will not be able to support myself from my art, then I would just keep it this way and be proud of putting out things I believe in. Rather than getting money, and cheapening my experience.”

Art and Teaching

“I’m in my eighth year of teaching; the more I experience this, the more I realize that these are necessary companion projects [art and teaching]. To articulate is to further your art practice. To deal with other artists and learn about their vision, is to further your art. The reality is that you have a responsibly to support the arts, and education is a great way to do it. I’m finding ways to make it one career, instead of two separate careers: teaching and the making of art.”

“Thinking of art not as a career, but a lifestyle.”

“I work at a charter school that serves the entire city of San Diego. It’s a project-based learning school, which means absorbing your content through doing, as opposed to more traditional textbook models. I’m the digital art instructor. I basically do whatever I like because there are no standards for digital art, no test I need to teach to. I work with twelfth graders doing an art and technology project.”

Her enthusiasm in describing this job was off the charts. She listed out what she does:

  • “I can push it as far as I want, I can curate it, I collaborate with them.”
  • “I push them to produce their best possible work.”
  • “I learn so much from the work they make.”
  • “I’m forced to learn new skills in order to teach them.”

“After I graduated art school, I said I’m not going to wait tables anymore, and I bought a van. I drove around the country, lived off a savings account, and just experienced things, and just applied for opportunities, hoping something would come through. I actually did get a fully-funded, two-month residency in Salzberg, Austria. I’m there, running out of money. I applied on Craigslist to anything remotely related to my interests. That is when I considered the dialogue editing job in LA. But then High Tech High had an ad saying they wanted a multimedia instructor, and I had an interview over the phone, and the rest is history.”

“I just had to quit waiting tables, it was like a nightmare. It was haunting me. I did it for 13 years. I was sick of smiling for money, of doing service for money. I was sick of that kind of transaction where my relationship with you is about pulling money from you. I stashed as much cash as I could, I outfitted a van.”

When I expressed how impressive it is that she did what many people dream to do — take a break from a career that no longer feels inspiring in order to find that next version of herself — she responded:
“I can’t believe I did it. I made my cat come with me, too.”

Steeped in Rejection

When we chatted via email prior to the interview, she mentioned this, “My career management is steeped deeply in rejection. I apply to hundreds of calls for work per year and 90% say no. That is rejection, that is painful and if I didn’t do this then my work would never move outside of the city I live in. But it hurts and I know many artists who won’t go through this because the rejection stings too much. But, I have learned a lot by these trials, including the fact that the rejection doesn’t always mean your work isn’t good.”

She continues in our chat:

“In the beginning I was really naive, and picked things that were obviously way out of my reach. I was like it’s a numbers game, I’ll just send it out there. So at first, it was really unsuccessful.”

“I mean, what is the alternative? Doing nothing? Sitting in your home not getting your work out there? What is the point then? So I think my skin just got thicker. But then I learned to be more strategic, vetting the opportunities before I apply. I try to get as many applications out there, because then I have a better chance of someone saying yes, right? If ten say no, and one says yes, that means I have another opportunity to show my work. Forget about those other ten.”

“I can’t live on the local opportunities, I need to see if my work reads beyond those who know me. To see if strangers will accept your work. Those who don’t have any emotional obligation to pick up your work.”

“I’m fine with the rejection now. People say yes every year, so there is enough people saying yes, to make the other ones not hurt as much.”

Organizing Her Life to Create

“I’m very regimented. I’m a planner. I refuse to think about school after I leave. I take a chunk of time before school starts, and plan the entire semester out so I don’t have to think about it at night. I walk in, I look at my plans, and I go with those kids as far as I can. Of course I adjust along the way, but I have a strong enough template that, even though it’s spring break, I’m not thinking about them at all, even though we have critical due dates coming up, because I have this plan that I trust in.”

“If you don’t plan, then every night is spent thinking, ‘well what do I have to do tomorrow?’ If I have to do that, then I’m not going to be making any [creative] work at all.”

“The struggle is when I first get home, that is when I want to take a nap, right? And I have to feed the cats, and my house is a mess. So I give myself an hour of transition mode, where I can just take care of my home. I actually think that is part of my practice. Just taking care of my life makes me a better artist.

“Then I brew some coffee and try to do a task. I usually have goals, and every night I think about what I achieved today.”

Then Margaret said something that I can’t understate the importance of:
“Embedded in all those structures, I have a solid 2-3 date nights with my husband per week.”

That she SCHEDULES aspects of what I would define as both ‘relationship management,’ and ‘mental health.’ She doesn’t wait for there to be a break in her schedule to take time with her husband, they schedule it.

It gets better — and this to was a huge insight to hear from her:

“That is what keeps me going, and I pretty much blow off all other [responsibilities]. I haven’t been to a work happy hour in five years. I have managed everyone’s expectations that I’m not coming to happy hour. I have other things that I have to do. My friends too, they are like, ‘Margaret, you are so lame.’ And I’m like, ‘I’m really sorry, but I really have these things that I can’t let go of.’ So I’m trying to manage their expectations too.”

The Risk (and Anxiety) of Working Experimentally

She went on to mention other risks that she takes: “The idea of working experimentally, in the classroom and in the home, is a risk to me, because I don’t know the outcomes of the projects, and I don’t know if they are going to succeed. But maybe the risk is what makes it interesting. That there is a lot more fun when there is a risk, than if it’s safe. There’s growth right? Art should never stagnate. Maybe the risk is why we are doing it.”

What fascinates me is establishing a process to be uncomfortable in the unknown. To push oneself from is known, and therefore feels safe, into what is unknown, and may not work out.

“Don’t get me wrong, I have anxiety. I will worry worry worry. I have to watch how much caffeine I drink, I quit sugar, I use a lot of strategies [to manage anxiety], because I take so many risks, I put myself out there so much. It’s a peaks and valleys experience.”

Training People to Understand Her Art

We are a physically-oriented culture, and yet, Margaret’s art is invisible. I asked her about her experience in getting people to even understand her work as art. Her response:

“Ultimately it’s like painting, except you can hear it instead of see it. It’s more focused on the experience of sound, and less focused on the musical composition. Just to think about sound purely in its own form. It is an impossible thing to explain, because there is a tension between what sound art is, and music. We are a visually-centric world. It’s not even within people’s grasp to envision art beyond a visual capacity. I have to do a lot of contextualizing to help them get close to it. It’s also confusing because it usually comes with a visual component too. Sometimes people need to focus on the visual component to even understand the sound.”

“There is fine line between experimental music and sound art. Some would say that sound art is musical. It’s an unconventional treatment of audio, and it’s mixed in with other media. It might be used at a dance recital, at a puppet show, used in support of a film. Recently, I have been using sound with objects, to animate them. So there will be a recording device hidden within them. It is like the hidden medium, but you need physical forms for it to travel.”

Thank you to Margaret for making the time to meet with me. You can find her online at:

For more interviews and behind-the-scenes stuff on my book Dabblers vs. Doers, click here.

Thank you!
-Dan